tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8807685073027188764.post2374361992488327327..comments2024-03-14T08:38:46.219-07:00Comments on Biophilia: Animals Ain't Got Rhythm, but (Some) Humans DoBurkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08135758421220520531noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8807685073027188764.post-15508854913392374682014-06-29T08:37:13.081-07:002014-06-29T08:37:13.081-07:00The difference I think is looking a language as it...The difference I think is looking a language as it is now versus exploring the simplest possible hypothesis for the beginning of language. How did we *begin* to get elaborate reality modeling and recursive speech?<br /><br />Proto-humans got some edge in memory - some neural buffer loop - that allowed the earliest "reflection" on the best response to the situtation. This was the building block of language (and consciousness). This allowed evolution to put the immediate affect/effect sequences that all mammal share in service of progressively more articulate choice. Speech is not fundamentally more complex than other animal motion patterns. It is this possibility of reflection that makes speech unique. It is not the recursiveness of speech that is interesting but the recursiveness of awareness.<br /><br />Regarding rhythm, given this idea of the delay, these proto-humans discovered rhythm early in this process - just delay and repeat. Chanting and drumming may well have served to to entrain this simplest use of the delay - socially and genetically. But that is not to say that rhythm is the fundamental trait.<br />Rick Thomashttp://github.com/iricktnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8807685073027188764.post-75157680523344158272014-06-28T14:40:26.216-07:002014-06-28T14:40:26.216-07:00Hi, Mr. Thomas- Thank you for your comment. But I ...Hi, Mr. Thomas- Thank you for your comment. But I am not quite sure what you are saying. Are we the only animals that use sequences to cope with our environment? <br /><br />It came to me after I wrote the post that starlings are an excellent candidate for animal musical ability. They have amazingly flexible voices, are very social, and may well be <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Arnie-Darling-Starling-Margarete-Corbo/dp/0395343909" rel="nofollow">trainable</a> in this way.<br /><br />And for language, why is the delay so crucial? It is the immense coordination required to sequence thoughts into speech, and likewise to decode auditory streams that are far more complex than stereotyped cries that seems more difficult. Not to mention the conceptual grounding one needs for recursive language and reality modeling. The feedback issue is important, but I doubt the most important one.<br /><br />With appreciation...Burkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11158223475895530397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8807685073027188764.post-60246741093838979962014-06-28T11:07:13.563-07:002014-06-28T11:07:13.563-07:00Jacob Bronowski argued that the "delay betwee...Jacob Bronowski argued that the "delay between the receipt of the incoming signal and the sending of a signal out [is] the central and formative feature in the evolution of language." [Human and Animal Language 1967] This simple hypothesis seems to be largely missing in more recent thinking.<br /><br />Fitch, for example, is being overly specific to look for human uniqueness in rhythm. A simpler hypothesis is that repetition is obvious practice for animals that are learning to use *sequences* to cope with their environment.<br />Rick Thomashttps://github.com/iricktnoreply@blogger.com